So France is starting an “experimental school uniform program” Sauce Do other countries also have that trend were conservative push for a school uniform rather than letting kids wear what they like ?
Be glad, in America, conservatives are pushing for school shootings.
Uniforms are not exactly a conservative idea. You could argue that it is a return to tradition, but uniforms are functionally more progressive if anything.
I have been to, no joke, over a dozen schools in several countries, some with uniforms and some without, and I find uniforms to be a far better option. Yes, uniforms aren’t cheap and you don’t get to pick what to wear, but I here are some reasons why it is still very worth it:
- There is no pressure to dress well compared to peers, especially if they can’t afford to
- Kids are less likely to be bullied for what they wear
- Kids don’t have expend mental energy in the morning figuring out what to wear
- Uniforms are generally less restrive and more comfortable than what is currently in style
- It’s optionally a form of gender expression for young trans folks (in open minded schools)
- Wardrobe malfunctions can be resolved at school sometimes
- Kids can reuse hand-me-downs from siblings going to the same schools
- A sense of community among peers, especially when they recognize each other outside of school
- Helps with body image because uniforms generally obscures people’s silhouettes to the same degree, so there is less pressure to look a certain way
Ive also been to school in countries with and without and I find that absolutely none of the good things people attribute to school uniforms are true.
- No pressure to dress well. Except that either a) you can buy better or cheaper fabric school uniform or b) the school makes new designs every year or two of the uniform and students that cant afford to buy new clothes every year or are buying second hand are easy to pick out.
- What about earrings, rings, hairstyles. School uniform shoes need to usually be bought from outside of the school and those come at just as many price points as normal shoes.
- I guess thats true
- This totally depends on the school you’re going to and what you personally like. If you are going to a fancy private school then you might have to wear a tie a lot which could be annoying to some. My sister had to wear skirts that went to her ankles which she didnt like. I was in a public primary school so you could wear pretty much whatever you wanted as long as the colours were correct which makes me pretty lucky. In the best case, you arent restricted but that often isnt the case once you are done with primary school. If you can buy your own clothes you can always pick something that fits you and is made from material you like.
- And stupid for enbys that are still finding themselves when uniforms are clearly for men or for women. Its much easier to find something that suits you personally if you can pick from everything instead of a reduced set that forces everyone to fit into one of two groups.
- Wardrobe malfunctions are less likely to happen if you dont need a whole second wardrobe for things you only wear to school and take off immediately when you come home.
- Kids can reuse hand me downs in any case.
- You can recognize your friends just fine without the uniform. Youre also not likely to wear the uniform outside of the school, because if you do anything that isnt perfectly exemplary behaviour while in school uniform and a teacher gets wind of it (and believe me this happens in the suburbs) then you (apparently) tarnished the school’s reputation forever. Also, you take it off because its ugly and because you dont have a lot of it and have to make it last before it goes in the laundry.
- Maybe from a distance? Up close people can very easily tell what your body type is.
There is absolutely no merit for school uniform. They’re exhausting to deal with. They kill your self expression which is important for teenagers especially. Often schools take it too far and try to send the pupils back into the 17th century. My sister wasnt allowed to wear make up. If you were seen with make up there were wet wipes at the front of every classroom so the whole class could see you wipe off your makeup. School uniform socks are just a greedy money making scheme.
And most importantly, they dont do anything against bullying. Kids dont bully each other for clothes because they actually mind the clothes. They bully because they want to bully. There will always be something. And there are better ways to work against that than forcing all children to buy a second wardrobe and suffocate anyone who is trying to express themselves in an unconvential way.
I think you are making a blanket statement about uniform systems and attributing all the bad things from a few to all of them. Uniform systems come in many varieties including gendered/ungendered, seasonal, school supplied/outsourced/local distributors, half uniforms (assigned shirt with unassigned but color coded pants), optional outerwear, regulations on haircut/makeup/accessories, and more.
Bullying absolutely happens to people who are not as well dressed, particularly people who have to wear the same days several days in a row in the absence of a uniform code. It may not have happened to you, but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t for others. I would know because I spent a good 5 years living on just two suitcases drifting from home to home, and my limited and undersized wardrobe was often a point of ridicule.
Saying “there will always be something to bully” as a counterpoint to how bullies will always find something to bully is pretty dismissive to how much it hurts to be bullied for one’s appearances. If you think that what you wear makes no difference to bullies, try wearing a clownsuit to school everyday. It’s like you’re saying “bullies will bully you anyway, so why not give them one more thing to bully you about?”
I get that being bullied for your clothes may not look a big deal to you because you’re a grown adult. But that’s not how many teenage minds work. Small things like that can be detrimental to their self esteem.
I think you are making a blanket statement about uniform systems and attributing all the bad things from a few to all of them.
I already touched on this and said that the best ones are the ones that give you the most freedoms. The very most freedom is had without any uniforms at all.
I would know because I spent a good 5 years living on just two suitcases drifting from home to home
How did this look when you moved somewhere with uniforms? You probably had to buy new uniforms and you would be able to give them away when you moved away again. That money could have been put towards buying something newer and nicer for yourself instead.
Saying “there will always be something to bully” as a counterpoint to how bullies will always find something to bully is pretty dismissive to how much it hurts to be bullied for one’s appearances.
The problem is that one’s appearance isn’t just the clothes you wear. How much does it hurt to get bullied for facial features, hair, skin colour, accent, pimples, issues possibly related to a disability? Bullies can also just pick any part of your body and make fun of that because most people dont have a perfect body. Everyone has something that is not perfectly adherring to body standards.
I just don’t see any reason to believe that uniforms would make it more “difficult” to bully in any way. Bullies don’t blanket bully everyone who wears X or does Y. They are predatory and choose specific type of person to bully and then just fling everything at them and see to what that person reacts.
I get that being bullied for your clothes may not look a big deal to you because you’re a grown adult. But that’s not how many teenage minds work. Small things like that can be detrimental to their self esteem.
I totally understand that. But the only time I, personally, ever saw someone get bullied for their clothes was when that person was wearing uniform that was in clearly poor condition because that kid had it really rough at home. On the other hand, I’ve noticed people attempting to bully me for traits of my personality. They weren’t satisfied with my reaction so they went on to bully someone else instead but the point still stands. Could school uniform have protected me from that? Does school uniform make me less nerdy?
I’m sorry you had to go through all of that growing up and I hope you’re over it now. I just feel like you’re giving school uniform too much credit.
I’m giving school uniforms the appropriate amount of credit based on my own experiences with it. Like I said, not every school I went to required one, so I didn’t have to change uniforms every time. For the schools that did, I often bought mine discounted or second hand, and still I’ve yet to be bullied about my clothing compared to when I only had my dilapidated wardrobe that made me stick out like a sore thumb in schools without uniforms.
You say you ‘totally understand’ in one breath, and then tell me in another how you’ve only seen it once which means that uniforms cleaely don’t matter. Have you ever been a school that wears uniforms before? I feel that we live in two different worlds here and I’m not so sure that you see the big picture.
I’ve been the new student more times than I’ve wanted to, and there were a myriad of things to be bullied about each time. I’ve been consistently bullied less often in schools that have a uniform, regardless of the topic. This is particularly true among American schools, which often did not have a uniform. The one that did (a public charter school), had far fewer bullies. You could argue that this is correlation and not causation, but that’s hard to believe when I’ve been repeated bullied for my clothing. The only additional ‘individuality’ I’ve seen in these people is the unearned confidence to say what ever they’d like about other people with no qualms about their feelings.
For the vast majority of the world, uniforms are the norm and even mandatory in many countries. Ironically, most school systems allowed me to choose my own backpack and only US public schools require specifically transparent backpacks due to mass shootings. It’s just wild the things this country would sacrifice in the name of individual freedom.
Uniforms aren’t the infringement on individuality people think they are. If it were true, most people in the world would have no individuality because they have uniforms. There is a reason why schools, hospitals, soldiers, and prisons have uniforms and it’s not just to look good, it’s to legitimize an institution and instill discipline. Schools with poor discipline is where rampant behaviorial issues develop. When schools are already understaffed and underfunded, the lack of a uniform makes it even harder to keep students in line. When students wear uniforms, their individuality stops being just about how they look and starts being about how they want to be perceived by others through their actions.
I’ve been to both school with and without uniforms. As I said, I only witnessed bullying based on clothing in the schools with uniforms.
For the schools that did, I often bought mine discounted or second hand, and still I’ve yet to be bullied about my clothing compared to when I only had my dilapidated wardrobe
I still don’t understand why money put towards uniform could not have been put towards better leisure clothing.
I’ve been consistently bullied less often in schools that have a uniform, regardless of the topic.
I neither believe that school uniforms create more bullies, nor do I believe that all schools with uniforms are bad. I think that uniforms are a huge waste of time and money that makes many children miserable - of course some will also like it, as you have made quite clear.
You could argue that this is correlation and not causation
Whether uniforms are normal or not really depends on the local culture so there could be any number of things at play of why there was less bullying or why you may have felt more comfortable in general. Attributing everything to uniforms sounds reductive.
For the vast majority of the world, uniforms are the norm and even mandatory in many countries.
The vast majority of countries also still use corporal punishment. I don’t value their opinions on education.
There is a reason why schools, hospitals, soldiers, and prisons have uniforms
to legitimize an institution and instill discipline.
Do doctors and nurses need to be taught discipline? Prisons use the lack of individuality as part of a punishment. Wearing something stupid is supposed to make you unhappy. For military this is true though but these are adults who know what they are getting themselves into. These aren’t angsty teenagers trying to find out who they are and instead being forced to wear things they hate.
When schools are already understaffed and underfunded, the lack of a uniform makes it even harder to keep students in line. When students wear uniforms, their individuality stops being just about how they look and starts being about how they want to be perceived by others through their actions.
In the school where I had to wear a uniform there were quite a lot of children from socioeconomically disadvantaged homes. There were quite a lot of kids who acted out and made life difficult for teachers and other students. There was far less of this in the schools without uniforms. It’s a socioeconomic thing. Uniforms don’t change that.
Like I said, this was something I’ve observed across public schools without and without uniforms, and they were of similar socioeconomic backgrounds.
I think we are going in circles here. You seem to be adamant in your stance of “I didn’t see the bullying and therefore it wasn’t a problem”. I can’t convince you that a problem exists if this stance overrides any evidence presented to you.
The best I can do is make my point and hope that someone else can empathize with it. Have a nice day.
I can say that in my case in New Zealand, there was one store to buy the uniforms and shoes with no exception. Everyone was equal and had the same set of clothes to wear, the only exception is that the boys wore grey and green and the girls had the option of white. The uniforms are still the same decades later.
In Melbourne, Australia there were stores like that in pretty much every shopping center and they would just have all the usual colours and you would buy the ones your school wanted you to.
They would have different fabrics at different price points. We all looked the same from afar but there were differences up close.
I find it interesting that there weren’t any sets with the school logo at your school. My school used these to raise a bit of money and would buy them back and sell them second-hand as well when you were done.
Most Australian schools do not have different materials for uniforms. They arrange with a couple of very specific providers to make official uniforms with exact same materials and quality standards. Saying otherwise shows you don’t know what you’re on about.
They include the logo on most of their stuff including tops and bottoms specifically so that other companies cannot rip off their uniforms and sell inferior products. It’s so controlled it’s basically a racket in Australia.
Then your schools are doing it wrong. Uniforms also typically come with a dress code that forbids excessive jewellery or accessories and they also mandate particular providers and exact material and specifications for the uniforms so there is no variation in material or other qualities.
Most of your points are just based on feelings and anecdotal experience that have no basis in reality when uniforms are properly implemented.
Thank you. Well said! I usually feel like the lone voice of reason against people who roll out the usual bullshit about uniforms.
Total tosh. Those are the dogmatic points people have been rolling out for years without any basis in fact. The “great leveler” theory was useful post War when the differences were obvious, but they are largely irrelevant today.
The “Sense of community” is always translated by kids as “forced to conform to what their parents did”. They don’t want that, and frankly most people who want to feel free to express themselves don’t want it either. The wardrobe malfunction stuff is true for uniforms as well, especially if you are a 14yo girl (parents of daughters will understand). The same is true for basically all of the points you made. And body image problems are often made a lot worse by NOT having freedom to choose what you want to wear. Also, studies looking at uniform vs educational outcomes have never found statistical meaningful correlations for our against uniforms.
These days schools in the UK only have uniforms due to a tradition introduced for reasons no longer relevant today.
Have you been to both schools that have a uniform and schools that do not? I feel that a lot of people in this thread are speaking from one side of their experiences without regard for the other and then claiming it is some kind of propaganda. I don’t know what you want me and others to say other than that we’re not paid by Big Uniform to say anything.
I’ve unfortunately been to more schools than I’d like to, and there is a stark behavioral contrast in ones that do have a uniform, especially for public schools. The only ‘individuality’ that students are stripped of is the frequency of bullying, knife fights, truancy, and other behavioral problems. People in uniforms are just less of a jerk and more of a member of the school community. I’m not sure what phenomenon in behavioral science this is, but people are easier to discipline in uniform and it shows.
Yes. The junior school my kids went to has uniform. The senior school was not. I realise that is not quite the same thing though. That said I have a mix my friends had a mix of uniform and non-uniform schools, and their kids also are mix. Across the board the opinion from parents and children is uniforms are old fashioned and need to go.
That said there are undoubtedly regional issues, and the areas I, my kids, my friends, and their kids are in tend towards the middle-class and up, in terms of affluence. That would suggest a degree that affluence dictates behaviour, which is unfair because each school is different and the social background of the students doesn’t always tell you if the school is a nice place or not.
The studies around behaviour and uniform have found that uniform does play a part sometimes, but usually there are other route causes and attacks related to the clothes the kids wore was just a symptom of other issues. So the lack of a uniform does not tell you if behaviour is going to be good or bad in a school. Schools have other tools that are more effective at handling behavioural issues, and some schools just have a harder time due to their location.
I worked at a school in Leeds a few years ago. They closed 3 other schools and brought together 3 different racial groups into a new single school. It was a nightmare at first but over time has improved to the point they no longer need a permanent police presence. This school has a uniform, but I highly doubt that had anything to do with their troubles.
Just FYI but studies say that the poorer a kid is the more likely they are to go out of their way to dress in designer clothes and buy expensive things to hide the fact that they are poor to their peers, and this produces poorer outcomes when it comes to their education as they prioritise paid work and other activities aside from their own education to pay for these things. This leads to poorer academic results and dropping out of school to pursue paid work at the expense of their long-term future.
Self-expression and freedom is great but not in every circumstance.
Lack of uniform harms under-privileged population. School provided uniforms make everyone look more the same and there’s less differentiation based on how you dress and your ability to wear something new every day and still be fashionable. So no, it is not conservative where I am, even if some may support it for the wrong reasons.
Tldr: uniforms are an anachronism, used as means of constraining and controlling kids, and reminding them who is in charge.
Very long; reading if you like:
Using uniforms to disguise the differences between rich and poor was a post War idea that made a lot of sense in the UK. The introduction of public schools at the time brought kids together from a wide range of backgrounds just when those differences were very obvious. It all made a lot of sense. Also, English private schools had famously used uniforms as it created a certain image that they wanted. To a degree this is now true of public schools, and the “tradition” of wearing uniforms is often given as a reason to keep them.
In the UK, in 2024, there are always kids wearing uniforms that are unwashed, need repairing, or just the wrong size. But even without those signs the kids all know who is rich and who is not.
If you take kids out of their uniforms and let them wear their preferred clothes, the differences between become very hard to spot. Back in 1942 this was not true, but today you’d be hard pushed to tell who is rich and who is not making the original purpose irrelevant.
To setup a study of the impact of uniforms is logistically impossible, however all studies that look at educational outcomes found no correlation between uniform and exam results. This seems to disprove the claim that uniforms allow kids to do better in class.
Today, schools like to have uniforms for a few reasons. One, they claim it is part of the school identity, which is true to a degree. But it came about due to national hardship, and is a reminder of times we no longer need. Two, school rules on uniforms have always existed but have become more strict in recent years (speaking as a UK parent of 3 kids aged 12, 16, & 25). In the school my kids attend(ed), they will send letters home and punish kids for uniform related infractions the moment they happen. However, they don’t do the same for education related issues. It took 2 years for them to report the issues my daughter was having, and they seemed more concerned with her earnings than her school work when we spoke with them.
Dropping uniforms would reduce the load on teachers who would not need to constantly monitor and punish kids for wearing the wrong shoes, or coats, or bags, or having earrings even. There would still be some rules but they would allow far more latitude for self expression and freedom that kids in 2024 require. And this is an important point. For good or bad, modern children are exposed to information, news, behaviours, and attitudes from around the world, from a very early age. They are also going through the universal issues of adolescence. We need to accept they need freedom to express themselves, not find ways to constrain them.
On a side note, it is my own view that some schools are scared of giving kids freedom to choose, and the uniform rules are intended as a way to make them “conform” to a conservative standard. Uniform rules are effectively a stick they can smack kids with. Take it away and you take their power.
Poorer people (especially kids) tend to over-compensate with buying designer labels to hide the fact that they’re poor. This leads to worse outcomes for poorer kids who then prioritize income receiving work over their academic study to pay for these items. It also encourages dropping out of school to work and be cool by wearing the latest threads, neglecting their education for short term gain.
You can’t just assume that because kids these days will all be wearing similar styles of clothing that there is no impact in dropping mandatory uniforms from schools. At least mandatory uniforms set a standard that parents must abide by or be forced to explain themselves to authorities when it comes to providing for their children.
Funnily enough one of the things you can be sure of, is girls all want to look the same, but also be somehow better dressed than their friends. You are right that kids want expensive stuff and parents try to provide where they can. Whether this leads to bullying depends on a bunch of other factors. Kids who bully will do so either way, uniform or not.
I’m not denying bullying won’t happen however that’s different to peer pressure and the need to fit in, particularly for adolescents. Peer pressure comes from even your own friends and the choices they make independent of anything you do.
Indeed. Uniform or, not, per person will exist. I just think we are better off without uniforms, and we should always work towards “no uniform”.
School provided uniforms
Don’t exist in my experience…
Your experience may not constitute a sufficiently large and representative sample
When I was homeless as a teenager my school gave me second hand uniforms for free at least.
You should probably try to look at politics from a less binary point of view, you don’t want to end up like voters in the US. Also I’m not able to access the link, I just get an access denied page.
The UK has rocked uniforms for quite a while I believe. It’s not political. It just identifies you as a pupil of a specific school. Anyone who skips school needs to carry a change of clothes to avoid being - potentially - busted.
It also stops pupils from being singled out for not being able to afford expensive clothing, apparently.
I went to school with a girl who never wore the same outfit ever until like her junior or senior year when she got in trouble for something and got cut off. The word was she said something like “What am I going to do!?!?”
That’s far more fucked to and sick than just having kids wear a uniform. Granted most kids aren’t rich enough to have that situation even happen but still.
Yes, I believe that’s true. With the exception of the make of your shoes and whatever (non uniform) coat you might wear everybody looks about the same. Almost like all children are equal…
I’ve heard the opposite. Apparently most uniforms have to be bought by the parents, and you can see a difference in whose household is wealthy and whose isn’t by how worn down or well-fitting the uniform is. Kids can be so mean…
Not sure if it’s necessarily a ‘conservative’ thing - in the UK (and maybe elsewhere) a lot of schools have uniforms, partly as a way to engender a sense of togetherness/community and partly because if everyone is wearing the same clothing, then socioeconomic differences aren’t so visibly contrasted by some kids wearing designer gear while others can only afford the less expensive stuff.
From that point of view you could see it as being quite an egalitarian idea - although the availability of affordable uniform is still a potential issue, and it’s important that lower income households are able to get the right clothes within budget.
I’ve heard the socioeconomic differences thing many, many times, and have kids that wear uniform. But I’ve never understood that argument.
It conceals socioeconomic differences. Which in the case of economic differences, is probably not egalitarian, strictly speaking? Ditto for social “class” in the sense of whether the family is historically “monied” and has particular dress style. In the case of cultural or ethnic differences, I do not see how the egalitarian logic follows either, as freely expressing your identity is restrained.
In terms of bullying… in my experience bullies will always bully. They will just do it on your overcoat, or how old your uniform is, or your earrings, or your accent, or the colour of your hair. I don’t know, maybe the uniform helps a bit…
It conceals socioeconomic differences.
It doesnt even do that.
- Do you have the cheap generic stuff from the uniform superstore?
- The higher quality stuff from the uniform superstore?
- The fancy stuff with the school logo printed on it?
- This year’s version or last years?
- How worn is your stuff
- Is it a hand me down or second hand?
These things are actually very easy to see. But you actually dont even have to go that far. Any kinds of accessories can give you away quite quickly but the worst offenders are school uniform shoes. You have to get these from the shoe store and they come at all price points.
Bullies will always bully
Exactly
Fair points and I agree that it only conceals the differences (and as the comment below yours points out, sometimes not even that).
Uniforms certainly don’t solve society’s inequalities - really all l meant was that they could be seen as an attempt at redress (excuse the pun), which is more than I would expect from conservatives (or Conservatives).
Uniforms don’t just conceal socioeconomic diffences they level the playing field for students, particularly at a venerable age with teenagers. Without uniforms and a dress code, there is more pressure to wear trendy designer clothing every day at school. What actually gets concealed is actual poverty instead, where poorer kids will prioritise work and activities outside school to pay for these items to fit in, leading to poorer academic outcomes and prospects for their futures.
A well-designed uniform and dress code system doesn’t allow for variations in material and uniform quality as it specifies exactly what must be used and how the uniforms must look and feel. It also specifies things like accessories, makeup etc that can be worn to further even things out.
New Zealand here. Our schools have always had uniforms. It’s not considered a conservative position.
Here in spain conservative parents take their children to religious schools which already have mandatory school uniform. So it’s not in their agenda to push it to non-religious schools.
It should be notes that these religious schools are public founded. Which is another topic by itself, but you should know that we already have public funded schools with mandatory uniform.
Dunno in Brazil as a whole but at least in my city, school uniforms are default. They’re simply taken for granted, not a “conservative vs. liberal” matter. Each school picks its own, but it usually boils down to a shirt, baggy pants, and a jacket (most schools cut you some slack on really cold days to swap it with a warmer one).
I went to a non-uniformed elementary school (which has since adopted a uniform), a uniformed high school, and then university which was obviously non-uniformed. I much preferred the uniformed years because I don’t care one whit about fashion I never had to think about what to wear.
Granted, my high school uniform had a lot of variety, considering. There were two cuts/styles for the long sleeved shirts, a short sleeve shirt, polo shirt, knit sweater, knit vest, knit cardigan, 1/4 zip sweatshirt, and blazer, which could be mixed and matched as you liked.
I don’t remember how the conversation came about, but in a previous office job, some discussion (among us low-level employees) came about regarding an office uniform. Most people were horrified by the idea, but I was totally for it.
Where I live, it’s both parties doing it depending on the school, like mine where a shirt/tie/skirt has been the norm despite being known for being uniform-free.
I thought this was already the norm in France.
I thought this was already the norm in France.
I am not that old, but the only school I knew with uniform was the all girl catholic school in my french hometown. And I believe a few years back, even them stopped having an uniform (and even merged some classes -for the older students- with the “all boy catholic source which never had an uniform”).
So until the experiment to be started in public school, it was very rare in France
From a Mexican point of view: School uniforms are mandatory in public primary, secondary and most high schools. Private schools tend to make them mandatory from even earlier but secondary and especially high schools may opt for not requiring one.
It’s just the default and rarely, if ever, a concern for any political group.
We had this in Poland but it was a one year deal from an actual fascist who resurrected a fascist org here
Here in Australia school uniforms are compulsory for public (gov run) primary and high schools, and usually in private schools. Students wear a uniform to school from age 5 to 18. They are thought to place everyone, rich and poor, on the same level. They are definitely not political. How odd to think what a 10 year old wears to school is a political statement!
How odd to think what a 10 year old wears to school is a political statement!
It is in America. But then again, you guys are a century or two ahead of us.
Is the cost of the uniforms on the students or institutions?
The public school uniforms are heavily subsidised and students parents tend to buy them for them. If a family member cannot afford one, for whatever reason, they can have a confidential meeting with a yearmaster and the school will buy it for them (it’s the same uniform, the school just sends someone out to the uniform shop to buy a uniform of the correct size), but that rarely happens, as it is cheaper than buying the kid a shirt and shorts that aren’t a uniform. A lot of kids just live in their uniform weekdays, as they’re cheap hard-wearing clothes the parents don’t have to pay as much for.
No idea about private schools, but they’re probably richer families, I guess.
That is better, I just had some flashbacks to my highschool that had some kids only having one outfit/hammydowns that had small tears and such, which ostracized them a bit
Probably (definitely) an American thing, but I’m gonna wear jeans and a tshirt or you can fuck right off. What are they going to do if you show up that way? Make you leave? Good by me. Yall suck anyway.
