@geneva_convenience It’s exactly the same that also happened several years ago between the US and the EU concerning civil planes. Here Boeing and Airbus compete against each other - and the US had the assumption, that the EU subsidized Airbus so that Boeing couldn’t compete. Because of that the US thought about tariffs that would have countered this.
I’m so confused here. I was under the impression that the entire argument for capitalist markets was that they produce cheaper and better goods than is possible to do with central state planning. Yet, here we have the capitalist west complaining that Chinese state driven model if producing goods that western companies are simply not able to compete with. Somebody help me understand.
Capitalists hate capitalism. Competition is so irritating, because someone might undercut you. (And other people would cheat to win, just like you would, so you can’t ever relax.)
@yogthos @geneva_convenience These tariff rates are calculated on a per manufacturer basis based on the subsidiaries that these manufacturers receive from their country. So it just restores the competition.
is this the famous “invisible hand of the market”?
Absolutely
Awww what’s da madder widdle capitalist can’t compete with a state run economy??
Once again ordinary people in the West are saved from affordable, low-pollution living, and Western companies are saved from having to compete.
That’s catchy, but not entirely true.
China heavily subsidizes EV manufacturers (and production in general), plus they have cheaper environmental and labour standards… it’s not like there’s a fair market EU companies can compete in without some sort of handicap.
PS: Yes, “western” countries have been playing along with China’s deliberate long term strategy with full awareness of where it would lead, but that’s another story that is both much older and has a much broader scope than the EV industry.
China heavily subsidizes EV manufacturers (and production in general)
And that’s a bad thing? Any sensible government is going to subsidise renewable energy and electric vehicles. It makes both economic and environmental sense. Anyone not doing this is an idiot and a climate terrorist.
Can you explain to us what the problem with China subsidizing EV manufacturers is exactly? That’s how China chooses to run their economy, and it’s entirely their business. The whole argument for capitalist markets is that they’re supposed to be more competitive last I checked. If that’s not the case then maybe the west should reexamine its assumptions about how an economy should be run.
They do this in an attempt to take over other markets.
If nothing else, they help get their brands into the world.
There’s loads of chinese EVs driving around where I live now, so based on anecdotal evidence, it’s working.@yogthos @gomp It’s the capitalist textbook example, to conquer a market by undercutting prices and to crush competition in that market that cannot compete - and to later increase prices when there is no more competition. You can see this all over the world, not only with China and EVs, but also for example with Uber and the taxi business or Europe with their food exports to poorer countries outside the EU.
This is the market place, brah. If the US or EU want to keep up, they can subsidize EV manufacturing to the same degree. We are just too stuck on subsidizing O&G to realize that harvesting value from a dying industry is going to leave us out in the cold as the new technology matures.
Free market capitalism and what we operate under haven’t been the same thing for as long as I’ve been alive. What some may call “Communist China” is beating us at the game. Get on the bus or get run the fuck over.
This is the market place, brah.
…
Free market capitalism
then talk about subsidies or non capitalist country controlling the currency, markets, VCs, etc.
What does that even mean?
I did… that was the part about extracting value from a dying industry.
they can subsidize EV manufacturing to the same degree
Meaning that we would either have to increase tax rates or borrow more money? Wow, what a great solution.
Or not subsidize oil and gas to the tune of ~$20 billion/yr and corn at $2.2 billion/yr and redirect that towards EVs.
Last I checked US prints money like there’s no tomorrow for shit like wars, but as soon as it comes to subsidizing something actually useful all of a sudden the concern trolling starts.
I feel like we would need to utterly destroy the working class to the point that cheap Chinese EVs would become expensive if we were to compete at the same level. I could be wrong, but how many of the chinese workers are driving brand new evs?
Western manufacturing tends to be much more automation heavy. Chinese manufactures don’t bother with buying a $100k machine that can make a car part when they can just hire 10 guys at $10k/yr to make that same part with a $50 drill press and some hand files.
It’s not that it all strictly balances out, but if we actually gave a shit we could potentially be cost competitive for a lot of price brackets, especially given the costs to move whole ass cars across the Pacific.
Bear in mind these sub $10k Chinese EVs are not something US consumers would really be interested in buying, they are basically tiny car shaped golf carts with extremely minimalist feature sets. Think ‘no audio system at’ all type interiors.
Western manufacturing tends to be much more automation heavy.
bruh https://www.statista.com/chart/31337/new-installations-of-industrial-robots-by-country/
Competition is good! Unless it makes shareholders sad.
Removed by mod
Except it’s not fair wages though and it’s getting worse not better.
Slave labor is a system in which a person is bought sold and indentured to a master for a substantial duration, often life. Their labor is coerced as property of that master.
That is not how China produces cars. They use highly automated systems and paid workers like everywhere else. While Chinese workers are paid less due to the forces of unequal exchange (a system imposed by the US) and an export economy (a system usually imposed by the US but more of a 4D chess move by China to develop productive forces, with the US gladly taking the deal for exploitation), that is not really why the cars are so much cheaper. It is because China has highly concentrated industry and a much less financialized system.
Speaking about “fair” is amazing in this context. The US is simply trying to protect domestic monopsony industry and to damage Chinese industry. This is a jingoistic and corporate policy.
Were talking about labour laws in the EU, not the US
My not American wage has me with less and less buying power with each passing year.
Do you loose all your savings and fall into years of debt if you have to spend a week in the hospital?
That’s true but the logic applies. The EU is part of the imperial core that eats from that trough and in turn supports its maintainer. It is simply following the US’ lead.
Labor conditions in the EU are better than in the US and better than in China
Depends on which part of the EU you are in. There is a reason the poor of Poland move to places like the UK.
Though this is neither here nor there as the original allegation was slave labor, which is simply a lie.
Maybe not hardware, but practically all textiles in China are made with Uyghur slave labor. That would include upholstery.
https://www.state.gov/forced-labor-in-chinas-xinjiang-region/
Already responded to this one comment over.
I love how people still peddle US state propaganda unironically.
This. Chinese workers cannot legally form a trade Union.
what are you smoking https://www.reuters.com/world/china/how-unions-work-china-2021-09-02/
They can’t form new trade unions because everyone already has to join a registered trade union.
And that trade Union serves the interests of capital. Try to form your own that fights for the workers, and you’ll get locked up. Its literally illegal.
Of course not, they don’t want that pinko communist nonsense affecting the economy.
Yay, no punishment for the european brands. What they were doing, slept?
Germany is upset about this because they sell cars to China. This will probable create Chinese counter tariffs on European cars.
Germany oligarchs are imbiciles who cornrred German economy into being a Russian pappet…
When Merkel was advised about these risks by us and Poland, we were mocked within Germany is “old idiots”
Now these same elites are hoping Ukraine shot blows over so they can go back to sucking Putin’s dick for gas.
Germany was so unreliable that US had to blow that fucking pipeline to send a msg to the German nazi napo baby regime.
Can’t make this shit up… European geopolitics are still as clown as ever.
Dead Ukrainians is a small price to pay for cheap gas!
Russian gas was a cheap way for Germany to produce. The short term economic effects were more important to Merkels electability than any long term plans.
When it comes to gas, Russia never shut off the tap. Instead it was America who blew up the Nordstream energy supply to garner support for a wider war. But now China is producing on cheap Russian gas
At least Germany appears to heavily invest in green energy since Norstream blew up. Bless the sun for shining everywhere.
I assume this doesn’t apply to Chinese parts used to manufacturer electric cars in the EU
Great news for EU auto workers!
oh yeah, the land of “free market” …
PS: Stolen land
Has the EU champoined free markets? I assumed that was more of a US buxzword.
Ofc. Electric cars are here to save the auto industry, not your health, safety, neighborhood, sustainability, kids, etc. #bancars
If there was any doubt that Western society only functions to serve the oil overlords…
