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- cross-posted to:
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The IDF revealed on Friday, what it described as intelligence showing a Hamas command center located under a the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City. In a briefing, Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari told members of the foreign press corps that there are areas in the hospitals that are used by Hamas to direct its military operations.
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Even if true, does it justify bombing and killing everyone in that hospital?
That’s the thing
Hamas is awful for putting military installations near civilian infrastructure, and the Israeli military is awful for bombing indiscriminately despite their advanced military tech and resources.
We don’t need to pick one or the other
Im not sure if i would blame Israel. If someone was barricaded next door to you taking people off the streets, taking pot shots over the fence and holding human shields you would want something done too. Unfortunately, while any action taken should miniseries danger to non-combatants they are literally in the line of fire.
They tried blockades and cutting power, but everyone complained at that too. What are you meant to do when your opponent is deliberately trying to make you kill civilians to get rid of them?
If only there were some middle ground between “doing nothing” and “leveling the entire building from orbit”. Perhaps something like sending in ground troops who can separate the terrorists from 6yo children.
Oh, I support invasion - just been arguing in soo many places forgot to mention it here.
But everyone seems to have an issue with ground assault too.
So send in iserali troops that cam get killed while trying to clear the tunnels and who could also in the heat of battle shoot innocent people ?
What dumb logic is that. You are just introducing more people that can die into the situation.
That’s the cost of claiming to care about innocent life.
Well put.on your fatigues and go raid the hospital big boy. It’s really easy to be concerned about innocent lives when you don’t have to put yours on the line.
I’ll keep the innocent soldiers safe and just bomb hamas
Love how soldiers are always innocent and victims are always terrorists.
Take precautions and don’t indiscriminately bomb civilian population creating the next generation of people that will fight you.
You know what would keep you from killing civilians?
A ceasefire.
You mean like every other ceasefire that was “agreed” in history that never lasted, had another attack and started all over again.
Those ceasefire?
Yes, those ceasefires! The ones that let non-combatants escape, aid to reach the dead and dying, humanitarian efforts to make headway even if only for a short time.
non combatants escape - Hamas is deliberately holding civilians where they can act as shields. They aren’t letting their only protection go.
Aid to reach dying - Hamas is taking it and holding it, it won’t reach those in need. Any aid that crosses will end up in the hands of those who want to prolong the conflict.
Humanitarian efforts to make headway - im not holding hope for any meaningful headway without coming under attack or theft, and would not be surprised if Hamas took aid workers as hostages.
I want you to be correct, but none of the history tells me that any civilians will benefit while Hamas is there and foreign (not necessarily Israeli) forces are not there to make it happen.
~40k Hamas fighters in Gaza can’t hold the other 99.9% non combatants population hostage. This is an excuse to lump all Palestinians in with the Hamas fighters.
Flour was allowed in to feed the people then one of the only remaining bakeries in Gaza was bombed. What is that but an attempt to starve the people of Gaza. Again maybe 1 in 1000 people is Hamas so 999 people have to starve to cut off Hamas?
How about Westbank, where there is no Hamas. Why are they bombing Palestinians in the Westbank if this is all about Hamas and taking them out?
What should Hamas do? Put their bases out in the open and announce where they are? They would be blown up within minutes.
Yeah, that’d work for me.
So pragmatism for palestine but israel must be held accountable to the highest standards?? This is why I cannot understand hamas apologists.
By the rules of war? Yes, absolutely. You could even make an argument that the Geneva Convention would encourage the bombing of this hospital as a way to deter future actors from attempting a similar war crime.
This looks so fake, holy shit. Apparently Hamas has a red barrel room straight out of every video game.
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It’s a representation of a Garry’s Mod level. I don’t doubt Hamas has bases in tunnels but the base depicted looks so obviously faked, the rooms in it look straight out of a video game. It’s like the Israeli government told a video game addicted intern to make up a Hamas bases in Garry’s Mod to send to the media.
“This is an illustration of Shifa hospital and the underground facilities. I want to repeat, this is only an illustration. We will not share here the true material that we have in our hands. This is only an illustration.” - The dude doing the press conference.
Yea, it’s an illustration of nothing real. Like Hamas doesn’t even have cement, what’s depicted in the video is as close to real life as if they had just shown a Doom level. What is the point of illustrating your imagination of what’s there?
…you think Gaza doesn’t have cement?
The import of cement is heavily restricted by Israel since like 20 years ago, yea.
Um Randy
https://handymantips.org/make-homemade-concrete/
Making cement is not hard. Find some sea shells or limestone and crush them up, add heat.
Do you need me to come fix your stove hinge ?
Not only is it not fake, it’s been known for some time, and Amnesty did a whole piece of how Hamas tortures dissidents there.
I don’t see anything there about Hamas punkers looking like an graphic design intern, who plays an excessive amount of FPS games, quickly threw the design together in Garry’s Mod.
I’m not sure how you think this is criticism.
Are you saying you’d be happier if the IDF released a Blizzard Cinematic of the tunnels? Why?
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I’d be happier if it doesn’t look obviously faked. Like you have the gun wall room with rockets littering the floor, then you have the terrorist video room and the video game red barrel room. All in a weird concrete structure. Like it looks like they just got some random to throw it together, it’s Russian propaganda levels of lazy.
Hamas and PIJ have always use Hospitals, Schools, and Mosques to hide inside, store weaponry, and fire missiles from.
In every single independent investigation by outside parties, that are not affiliated with Qatari owned Al Jazeera, like the UNHRC have found this to be true. They do this because they use the Palestinian people, with the Palestinian people’s blessing, to be used as human shields, knowing if Israel strikes, what should be a sacrosanct community center of religion, or healing, or learning, will be used for anti Israel inflammation in the world forum … like the Fediverse. They communicate to Israel , yeah this is where we’re hiding and storing our weapons above ground, if you hit us here we’re gonna make it hurt in the public relations department.
And even after it’s proven that Hamas and their sycophants have lied, and it’s one of Hamas and/or PIJ’s own rockets which have misfired, landed and killed their people all the yahoos scream bloody murder, and Jews worldwide are targeted.
And then a Rabbi gets stabbed to death outside her home in Detroit.
The “underground terror network” propaganda everyone keeps pushing really loses it’s momentum when someone brings up the severe lack of cement in Gaza due to Israeli trade restrictions. Speculative evidence of tunnels under hospitals does not allow justification of bombing those hospitals.
Fun fact: The shortages in Gaza are because Hamas keeps all the money and supplies for their “war effort”
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099
This is because, as their charter states, Hamas views all Palestinians as martyrs to the cause, and not only doesn’t care if they live or die, they actively encourage civilian deaths. Sometimes at gunpoint.
Also the tunnels are not speculation. They are the entire reason the ground assault is happening. They’re extremely well documented, and tunnel networks have been in the area for literally thousands of years
NBC is an unreliable source when speaking on this subject.
Every source that disagrees with you is "unreliable "
Yup. Also sources that are paid to run stories to push a certain agenda are unreliable.
Are you copying and pasting the same reply as someone else? I swear I keep seeing this exact reply on anything to do with Israel / Palestine, but it doesn’t show up in your post history (as far back as I could be bothered going anyway).
Not sure why you are downvoted for asking a legitimate question.
Personally I’ve never seen it, but it does provide a bit of background.
No, it’s being said a lot because its both deplorable and true. And every time someone learns about it for the first time they assume that no self respecting person could know about Hamas’ crimes and still support Hamas.
or PIJ’s own rockets which have misfired
Still hasn’t been verifiably proven by either Hamas nor the IDF what actually happened. Even Al jazeera’s own video was contradictory to what the IDF claimed because it showed the missile launching from Israel which makes no sense.
And then a Rabbi gets stabbed to death outside her home in Detroit.
Unrelated and most likely not a targeted murder according to the police
UNHRC have found this to be true
Not saying this isn’t true but source plz? I can’t find anything talking about this mostly because right now they are focusing on the humanitarian crisis, so its all the new articles.
hey that means we should just bomb it down!
No this is why they’re doing the ground invasion.
Although they did collapse some tunnels with “sponge bombs” that have expanding foam rather than explosives.
Have they already used the sponge bomb? Or not yet?
Do Israeli leaders know that when a terrorist uses “human shields,”, you aren’t supposed to kill the “human shields”? You’re supposed to prove you’re better than the terrorist by valuing civilian life.
“Human shields” in quotes because they seem to think Hamas using tunnels makes all of Gaza a human shield. But if you value human life on the x and y axis and kill civilians on the z axis, you’re still a war criminal. Real life is 3D.
Not quite - you are meant to respond in a proportional way and minimise civilian casualties. It sucks, but civilians die in war and this must be minimal.
Level the whole building - non proportional, didn’t minimize casualties, probably a war crime (as it is a military target it may be considered acceptable).
Blockades to remove hamas strength and stop aid supplies that aren’t getting to civilians anyway- proportional and minimises as opposed to what else can be done.
Restricting resources then invasion - legal to remove a threat, proportional, minimize casualties.
Interestingly this is the exact same response a police force will do if someone blockades themselves inside a building with human shields and takes pot shots at everyone walking past - starve, remove strength and resources, get as many hostages out as you can then invade it.
Using civilians as a human shield in a state-state conflict is a war crime, however if hamas is considered a terrorist organization rather than a state it is no longer war and not technically a war crime. I believe other laws come into play however, its been a while.
I don’t have a problem with crushing the Al-Qassam Brigades or crushing Hamas leadership structure. I do have a problem with the loose definition of human shield and pretending the health ministry is the Al-Qassam Brigades.
I root for team civilian but even if I had a special place in my heart for Israel, I think what they’re doing is counterproductive. Every civilian killed means two terrorists a few years from now.
From what I understand, putting militarily installations in places of worship, schools, hospitals and similar, is a war crime even in non-international conflicts.
Been a few months since I looked at the finer details - something about the rules of war only applying in state-state war as state-non state is a conflict, not a war and as such could not be done for a war crime. However could be done for crimes against humanity which would follow a different process. Things like Somali pirates were excempt from war crimes as they were a non-state actor even though they targeted civilian shipping and went against military forces.
Either way - it is globally acknowledged it shouldn’t be done and hell should be brought down on the perpetrators from the international level. Hamas was also the elected government (i think) so it is a state-state war.
I’m obviously not a lawyer so take this with a heap of salt but Article 8, 2. e) seems to explicitly specify war crimes for non-international conflicts:
Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in armed conflicts not of an international character, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts
That’s just saying they can hold a trial in absentia for non members, it’s not binding but it’s shows international stance.
Neither - just studied a bit at uni.
get as many hostages out
Ah I see Israel skipped this step because they don’t care about the hostages (and neither does Egypt for that matter)
That’s not what the geneva convention says. The right of self defense takes precedence. So according to international law those locations become valid targets. They are not “supposed to keel over and die”, that’s not valuing their own lives.
The right of self defense takes precedence
It stopped being self defense a while ago bud
I don’t doubt that they put them in and around hospitals, schools, mosques, and churches to try to increase civilian casualties and therefore outrage when Israel goes and strikes their enemies.
Reading Lemmy, it works wonders
Oh, well if IDF reveals it, it’s gotta be true . . .
What do you mean?
It’s not like they could have faked the audio recording of two anonymous people saying it’s definitely happening…
I mean sure, if they wanted to they could send in ground forces and capture the hospital they could prove that infrastructure exists, but why do that when they can just collapse the hospital and kill all the patients too?
Sending ground forces straight into the center of Gaza isn’t as simple as you make it seem. The place is booby trapped and has a labyrinth of tunnels full of armed terrorists just waiting to kill Israeli soldiers in the name of Allah or some shit.
They can’t just stroll in and take a look under the hospital.
I wonder how many people understand what this was.
inb4 WMDs in Gaza /s
This picture reminds me of something…
Xcom? Because its the vibe I got.
Oh, right, lemmy doesn’t show images from Kbin. Here’s a link
So this is a hospital IDF is admitting they bombed?
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There are, in fact, multiple hospitals in Gaza. This logic is not particularly challenging.
Similar, no where did they say they bombed it.
Not the same hospital
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This certainly has the tone of disinformation released by a state intelligence agency. Justification after the fact for brutal hospital bombings.
