For me anyway, the modern web feels like the realization of those early internet pioneering ideas. I run my own personal site, with a nice open source google photos replacement, hosting my own VDI, streaming services, you name it. It’s all running on a pile of discarded speak and spell’s in my basement (a joke but only barely, this junk will run on anything that can host a container). It’s all possible thanks to the open source shoulders of giants I’m standing on and in spite of my lack of coding experience (I’m dev/ops). The fact that I run more infrastructure than my first few jobs combined, as one hobbyist, kinda blows my formerly teenage brain.
It’s still out there, just so long as you are willing to DIY. I am holding great hope for the fediverse, although I’ve been getting used to disappointment lately.
What do you use as a Google Photos replacement?
There’s a few out there that are pretty decent. I actually use two at the moment but will consolidate eventually.
Been using Librephotos for a while now: https://docs.librephotos.com - tried a few but landed on this one not for any real technical reasons, I just like the interface and it’s easy manage.
I also use https://immich.app - I started using it as a simple way to backup my families phone photos but it’s on such a furious development pace that I’m pretty sure it’s going to replace librephotos for me as well someday.
Immich is good alternative
I imagine you weren’t old enough to remember the early days of the Internet and the hopes we had. Maybe I’m wrong.
I am, and as a former Unix admin, I’m also amazed at how easy self hosting is these days. Hopefully it continues to grow. It certainly seems to be.
I’m old enough. First had internet in 1994, made my first website in 1996. Back then everything was DiY, and most regular people didn’t really see the use in it until AOL convinced them by giving them email and easy-to-access yellow-pages like thing (which was AOL’s website bundled with a browser they could install without knowing anything technical). At the time, computers were sold in furniture stores along with entertainment centres.
I vividly remember explaining to multiple clients in the early aughts that AOL wasn’t the actual internet. They couldn’t find their new website because they had no idea anything outside aol.com existed, and they were entering their web address in AOL’s site search.
I remember the hopes very clearly. I remember before that when BASIC was fun and magical.
I gotta agree – this is the natural culmination of those hopes, if not actually better. ISPs are comparatively cheap, everyone can access most sites for free and with zero technical expertise, and anyone can say anything they like on one site or another. In the beginning, it really seemed that it would be very expensive and not very accessible. Those are massive hurdles that I don’t feel get enough credit in these conversations. I’m typing this on a small computer in my hand, ffs.
If you didn’t watch all that happen from the inside (I’ve been a software and firmware developer since the mid 90s and a user experience designer since 2002, and began fucking about with programming and hardware in the mid 80s), I can totally see how many people are more cynical about expectation/reality. From the relative outside, the internet seemed to pop into existence like magic in only a few years – and it really did seem like magic, with early-adoption consumers rightly believing it could change the world.
I think the bigger issue is that knowing what all humans are thinking is not as fun as we thought it would be.
I would really like to hear from people who are not web developers or creating software and firmware. I believe the experience for the large mass of humanity is so much less than the potential it had back in the day. Yes AOL existed but it truly was the low end of the scale. It’s not like there was people who did web development software and firmware and then everybody else was on AOL. However, it is a lot like that now. The people who are smart who are savvy who can find what they’re looking for in spite of the barriers put up to finding that still enjoy the freedom and the cheap plentiful access that they’re looking for. But you have to be able to get to it using command line level language and most ordinary users don’t have anything like geocities to allow them to produce a website about their model trains.
It’s indeed a utopia for the technically savvy. And that’s it.
Right, but I wasn’t talking so much about my own experience, rather my experience with other people during that time, because I was tech support for literally everyone I knew, so I knew what they all thought. Because they told me.
AOL was what most nontechnical people had during that time. There’s a reason for those AOL disc memes. It’s made fun of a lot, but that was how the internet became mainstream. They mailed them to everyone and their grandma, and their success was it was FREE** and the discs installed and configured everything for you: the browser, the ISP settings, and even their home page. You stuck the disc into your cup holder, and it gave you a friendly icon on your desktop to click to access The World Wide Web™ (or AOL’s private version of it – most people didn’t know better). Most people would never have discovered the internet otherwise.
eta: and yes, internet society was actually that divided in the early years. More so, if anything. AOL was so ubiquitous and marketed, they made a blockbuster movie out of it. You likely can hear the tone in your head, even if you never used AOL in your life. Few brands have attained that social status, or held it for long. Oscar Meyer, Disney, things like that. And it didn’t last a hundred years; merely a few. /e
It wasn’t just the discs – if you bought your computer from the furniture store it came set up that way. Non-tech people just clicked that icon and didn’t know any better. Keep in mind that accessing the real internet was difficult and required a lot of knowledge many people neither had nor wanted at the time. The computer was for spreadsheets and solitaire, and it was a very expensive luxury.
I doubt you’ll get the response you’re looking for, because the people you’re talking about are the same people you’re decrying today. I’m saying that idealised demographic didn’t really exist, and I’m not speculating about them. I was embedded deeply in a world of those people. I remember them very clearly. I made it my career to understand them.
I strongly believe you’re seeing them through a heavy fog of nostalgia.
eta: and back to the original point, I strongly believe that people who feel the internet has fallen short of our expectations don’t remember what our expectations really were.
Good answer, but I disagree.
However, I’m willing to admit my memory isn’t perfect and perhaps I’m wrong and things were exactly as you said they were.
One of the early utopias was that people would no longer debate about things because the internet would bring people together and provide them with information about anything and everything… well then algorithms and social media happened, and now we’re stuck with echo chambers of anti-vaxxers and flat earthers.
Other than that, it’s been nice in many ways nobody could have anticipated back then.
Social media empowered narcissistic self-publication, which is one of the main things that ruined the Internet.
The problem is that the subject of discussions was moved from objective topics to the self. Every topic being discussed is now tainted with the insertion of the self as part of the topic, for the purpose of garnering attention to the self. Instead of the topic being discussed, now it’s “Look at what I’m talking about, isn’t this interesting what I’m telling you?”
Facebook and Xitter are very user centric platforms where you care about the person more than the topic. Meanwhile, in (formerly) Reddit and (currently) Lemmy I rarely even look at the usernames. I care about the topic, and that’s why I’m here in this thread.
I think the Internet really did make people more knowledgeable overall, but my personal theory is that, as a collective, we are in the area of knowing that dunning-Kruger effect takes place. With our current collective intelligence machines really crystallizing that to me, where if ask an LLM something it doesn’t know, it will act like the average person on the internet and make shit up and assume it close enough.
The information age really speaks to the idea that information is not knowledge, but knowledge can be formed from information. I think the next major revolution and why social media algorithms, AI, data science, etc are so hot is because they are attempts to enter the knowledge age. To take all of this access to information and truly learn something from it, at the same scale.
Well said. In many cases we’re riding the highest peak of the DK-curve, and you can tell by the massive aura of confidence radiating from some comments.
Reading the Covid discussions was absolutely wild. Suddenly we got all these people who seemed to know things about epidemiology, virology, biochemistry, statistics and what not. Plenty of confidence, little bit of information, but hardly any knowledge, let alone humility.
But you could actually learn and grow via the internet then. Information was free, available, and tools actually helped you find it.
I imagine you’re probably talking more about content, but you’ve uncovered a pet peeve of mine having more to do with the structure of web pages.
The original vision of html was to have this beautiful format that flows text and graphics elegantly over whatever space you give it. I remember thinking this is great! One day we will have pocket-sized displays and the web is already future-proofed to work seamlessly in that world.
Then fast-forward to smart phones. By now, web pages were so rigidly formatted that they had to design special mobile versions of every site.
well, at its heart, the ‘www’ was supposed to be a bunch of documents linked to each other contextually… in a similar vein Wikipedia handles things
you ever try and use the web without images? genX remembers.
Marketing ruins everything.
I think that’s too generalized. Marketing finances the Internet just as it has always financed print media (including the good, even inversitgative journalism).
I think that’s too generalized. Print and written media existed for literally thousands of years before marketing finance.
Touch some grass.
Print and written media existed for literally thousands of years
Uh, no? If by media you mean anything that could remotely considered for the masses then absolutely not. The printing press was so revolutionary because it allowed making multiple copies of written documents without doing them each manually. Reading and writing was so expensive and rare a hobby because the written word was expensive; why would you need to read more than the basic signs if chalk boards were your limit of writing?
“News” before then was word of mouth. Town criers and the like.
My neato.
Guy replies with a hyperbolic shitpost about capitalism.
OP replies sincerely.
I reply hyperbolically in turn.
You assume I’m serious, then assume media can only mean “the mass news media” while ignoring any subtler parallels about access to information and adoption. (e.g. Does reading and writing being expensive relate to the early internet where access and hosting were expensive? Does the evolution of the written word have parallels with the evolution of the internet?)
If I’m responding semi-seriously, I do want to note that it’s only in the American school system where there’s no writing until the west gets paper. Armies of scribes carved into stone, impressed into clay, and wrote onto vellum to blanket empires in written news.
I would definitely prefer a world in which sources of content are often paid-only instead of ad-supported, but the main thing needed for such a world is a higher minimum wage so more people have disposable income to distribute to authors they appreciate.
This would mean that if someone posts a rage-bait article like “Is Former President OBAMA Stealing Opium Money OUT OF YOUR POCKET?” then maybe people will click it, but the author won’t gain anything out of it.
Yeah how about no? Knowledge should be free, I’m not gonna pay 5c every time I want to open Youtube or some shit. In a utopia you’d pay some small government tax that’d go towards keeping the web ad and paywall free, so the people get happy and the greedy corporate rats get their dirty money.
That assumes either all sites on the web deserve equal compensation for their acts, or some body can decide what the relative value of each is and compensate each creator accordingly. You’d go back to having click farms, but they’d claim the government owes them a billion dollars for their high traffic.
Even the government would usually prefer that citizen money go directly to the systems that they prefer to support, rather than go through taxes to a government program that sponsors them (that’s why you get tax deduction for transit usage and charities). That second route is just needlessly complex.
There’s also better models for payment than microcharges. No one wants to consciously spend 5 cents in an online action. YouTube could require users to be subscribers to view or upload certain forms of content, or each individual creator would integrate some form of Patreon setup. A really simple solution would be to divide someone’s monthly subscription fee based on who they watched most that month.
Yes, I’m mainly concerned with the content. HTML certainly gives you all the possibilities, but it has ultimately led to boring but easy-to-use and correspondingly restictive UIs. I think anyone who wants to reach a lot of people today will do so via social media (original Myspace unfortunately didn’t work out, tho).
actually made my own site https://sandwich.sh/ you can do quite a lot with just html, I just don’t know what. the archive section is html generated with a bash script. sending it here because I think it’s cool
It was meant for porn en now the biggest part of it is porn. I’d say a success.
As far a I know the porn industry has actuality driven innovation in various web-technologies including streaming, e-commerce, VR…and now probably AI, I guess.
We should put porn on climate change
The Internet is really really great 🎶
I’ve got a fast connection so I don’t have to wait 🎶
I don’t think the biggest part of the internet is porn. There’s a LOT of porn and a few really big porn sites, but I don’t think they hold a candle to social media and shopping.
I found this link that has porn being #s 14 and 15. It was actually hard to find recent data that included porn at all. I think some counters were too embarrassed to admit porn existed.
Those are just the biggest sites. Also 12 is a porn site. But it doesn’t say anything about the size of the total porn on the web. Like, amount of sites and content. Estimates are roughly 80% of the entire internet is porn.
i dont understand this at all.
theres nothing stopping me from building stuff for the web. dude, i run a social media server named moist
if your complaint is that ‘users are hard to wrangle away from corporations’, well, that has less to do with the internet and more to do with lazy/ignorant people.
i think the fact they use every psychology trick to hook and deceive them has some significant impact in this.
Yeah exactly, let’s not wholly blame the victim (humanity) here, that shit’s engineered to be addictive.
Content-wise, I think we aren’t in a bad spot. There’s a tonne of information available online that wasn’t accessible before. Wikipedia is a pretty great example, but the millions of howtos scattered across Instructables, YouTube, and other sites are also pretty amazing. Yeah, there’s monetization and SEO crap, but I think (hope?) it’s a net positive.
Application-wise, I think we’re also in an okay spot. Almost anyone can publish videos, text, and opinions on corporate publishing tools. If you want, you can spin up a private server with just a credit card, and do whatever you want with incoming traffic. Web browsers aren’t quite Neuromancer/Shadowrun decks, but they do allow anytime to run untrusted code safely on a local machine.
Did all this free information bring us together? No. Not yet, at least. But I think that’s what the early tech utopians got wrong. We aren’t insufferable jerks because we don’t know any better, we’re insufferable jerks because we know better and choose to do it anyway.
but I think (hope?) it’s a net positive.
Definitely a net positive. My friend and I were discussing something similar the other day. He rides motos and I ride downhill and we both learned via youtube. What used to be restricted to people who could afford private lessons or coaching are now available to people even in third world countries. It’s opened up a lot of new horizons for people.
That’s the unsung hero of all this. A friend and I were able to build RC planes with the help of a couple of YouTube videos and a printer. It would have been possible before the Internet, but it would have been harder and more expensive.
That’s true, of course. I didn’t mean to say that the internet doesn’t also have very positive effects. It’s a blessing that knowledge is now much more accessible. But on the whole, it seems to me that people don’t really make use of it - quite the opposite. It seems to me that many more people are now confusing their uninformed opinions with scientific knowledge. There is no other way I can explain this strange hostility towards science that a not inconsiderable number of people are displaying - this is a phenomenon of the recent (internet) past, or is my impression wrong?
It seems to me that many more people are now confusing their uninformed opinions with scientific knowledge. There is no other way I can explain this strange hostility towards science that a not inconsiderable number of people are displaying - this is a phenomenon of the recent (internet) past, or is my impression wrong?
I don’t know. My bias is that human nature is constant over time. As such, I think we’re using the Internet the way we used other resources in the past: cherry picking statements that confirm our existing beliefs, and dismissing statements that challenge them.
I grew up at the end of the Cold War. Without the Internet, people were able to convince themselves climate change wasn’t a thing, planetary annihilation with nuclear weapons was an ok risk, and smoking was yucky but got an unfair bad rap.
The Internet hasn’t caused people to be idiots, it’s just given idiots another platform.
I’m not at all sure either - it’s just a feeling. Perhaps those who make up the world to suit their fixed oppions have become more adept at using the media available to them and thus appear more influential than they actually are. It’s just that I simply can’t understand how people can cling to the most absurd claims and even aggressively propagate them when it’s actually easier than ever to check facts today. That’s just mind-boggeling to me.
theoldnet.com ftw
Well that was a silly 10 minutes lol
I recently played the video game Hypnospace Outlaw and one of the things that stuck out was there was a set of five “subverses” of sorts about nerd culture, and the parent company that runs Hypnospace wanted to get more of that sweet ad money, so they consolidated them into one space, and put it on a slower server. And when you visited these pages, they were noticeably slower compared to the new “sports” space which they did to chase that sweet new customer retention money, all in the leadup of, well, see for yourself (major spoilers).
What do you want? Do you want the internet to be for academics again? Because we’re past that. The moment you have to put a monetary value to something, it becomes about seeking monetary value either to 1) keep it going or 2) keep it going and make a bit of cream on top. This is how the world works now. I hate it, but i’m not pining for the old days either. The cycle continues from Geocities, to Social Media, to the Fediverse, and probably the Metaverse after that.
Wow that a whole lot of several different things jammed together. This thesis would make a good article or book but as a shower thought it doesn’t really stand on its own.
Sorry, it was really just a shower thought. I was thinking of two things: 1. the hopes that were placed in the Internet have, in my opinion, not materialized at all. Of course, there are many positive effects, but on the whole, the Internet has by no means lived up to its potential. 2. we are now faced with a situation where large corporations control most of the internet used by the general public. This brings with it responsibilities that I don’t believe these corporations are living up to in any way. Hence the analogy with climate change: a change for the better would probably be possible, but there can be no solution as long as those who are largely responsible do not accept their responsibility. Unfortunately, in my opinion, this will never happen.
I see it a little differently. I think the internet has lived up to and exceeded its potential. It’s done things we couldn’t even have thought of back in the beginning. Or course as it grew, it became no longer just the playground of academics, scientists, and creatives. It now has huge commercial regions and is as mainstream as any other medium. It’s no longer solely a cool place where cool people are doing cool things. It is now also playing a role much like television for a bunch of dumb masses to be shown commercials by corporations.
What’s worse is the unimagined downsides. Election misinformation. Hate group echo chambers. Terrorists using it to organize. We failed to imagine these things back in 1992 but maybe that really is just a failure of our imaginations, not the internet. I remember the heady dreams of democratization and universal access to quality information. It was all pretty naive. There were people who imagined television technology would be used for in-home education, too.
But the bad stuff doesn’t erase the cool stuff. It is still enabling creativity and science, arguably moreso than the halcyon days of HTML 1.0. Did any of us ever imagine in 1992 that thousands of scientists could use images from hundreds of locations around the world to construct an image of a black hole, sharing data, tools, code, and ultimately the image itself over the internet? It’s just wild. Remote surgeries, AI, self driving cars, tracker tags, home automation… it all runs on the internet. A lot of it is scary, but it’s also fascinating and far beyond what we imagined 30 years ago.
We used to talk about video conferencing like some far off future. Just because now we see it as mundane doesn’t mean the internet didn’t deliver on its potential. It delivered, and more. We just forget how cool a lot of it is, we were dumb to think it would be nothing but roses, and it’s changing life so much that it’s getting a bit scary.
But didn’t live up to its potential? Nah.
So I don’t really even see your posited problem, and this makes it hard for me to understand your point about a solution. I guess “corporations bad and no one will fix it,” is the bottom line? Well, that has nothing to do with the Internet and everything to do with capitalism. It’s the worst system there is, except all the others that have ever been tried. If you have any new ideas, we could sure use them.
You are of course absolutely right that there has been remarkable technical progress. I also completely agree with you that there have been wonderful developments in terms of the accessibility of knowledge, for example. Nevertheless, I still don’t think that the internet has, on the whole, lived up to its full potential. What brings me to this assessment is that instead of having an equalizing effect, I think the Internet has created global monopolies that are now managed by just a few, all the more powerful companies (Meta, Amazon, Alphabet, etc.). I don’t mean that all companies are bad or that it’s not legitimate to make money on the Internet, but that a few companies have become so powerful that they basically no longer allow any competition in their industries. In my opinion, this is a consequence of capitalist market logic (an unregulated market will always produce monopolies) - and this logic is in turn reinforced by the network effects of the Internet (once a platform is the biggest, it will become bigger and bigger because it has the most utility). So I come to the conclusion that the internet has become more of a dystopia: I think it has even increased the centralization of economic power and thus inequality in our capitalist system. This is not to say that I don’t see the good sides. But I think that technological developments should not be viewed separately from the logic in which they are embedded. And this is where I see the problem: the Internet is no longer a free medium with equal opportunities for everyone who can make use of it, but an (easier-to-use) platform economy, at least in the parts that are used by the masses. I don’t have a godfather solution for this, just as I don’t have one for effective measures to combat climate change. However, I think that nothing can change significantly in either case as long as the logic of excessive profit maximization continues to dominate. Or to put it another way: I fear that all the efforts of committed individuals will not succeed if we simply carry on as before - if it were otherwise, the utopia of the early Internet would have been realized long ago. That is of course a pessimistic view, but unfortunately I think it is also a realistic one. Nevertheless, I don’t want to say that it’s not sensible and worthy of all honors if everyone tries to do their part. After all that’s why I’m here on Lemmy and not on Reddit.
The internet probably offers more opportunity to a small solo operator than ever before. I’m not sure what your memories of the early 90s were but it was not easy to set up a website and forget about an online store. Nowadays there are incredible tools for this and a million flowers are blossoming. The fact that corporations also profit from this doesn’t negate it.
I grew up in a time when 3 companies controlled virtually all the news media. The fact that a tweet can now sweep the world literally IS the “democratized” future we always dreamed about.
Watch me.
What do you mean by “turn the tide for the better”?
Unshitify it.
Exactly.
I didn’t ask you and you didn’t explain shit.
For example, efforts in the areas of data protection, freedom of information, combating misinformation, improving working conditions in the online sector, creating fair digital remuneration models and so on and so forth. Pretty much things that the Electronic Frontier Foundation, NOYB and many other such organizations are committed to.
So you’re saying it’s hopeless to fix any of these issues? Why?
Major parts of today’s internet are controlled by extremely powerful corporations - that’s just a fact. Private individuals and even committed activists have very little to no influence on how these corporations shape their part of the internet. Hence the analogy with climate change: this problem, which threatens the whole of humanity, could probably also be solved, or at least be tackled in a meaningful way. However, a solution is only possible if those corporations that are largely responsible live up to their responsibilities. Of course, this is not to say that private individuals should give up all hope and not try everything they can. Look at it this way: every post or comment on Lemmy is the equivalent of a properly disposed plastic bottle - just a drop in the ocean, but a drop nonetheless. What I was getting at overall is that you can certainly make a contribution, but this small contribution will be of little use as long as those who are actually responsible do not live up to their responsibility, because only these players could turn the tide for the better; but unfortunately they don’t; quite the opposite, I think. Nevertheless, every contribution to improving the situation is important. So please don’t let my pessimism get you down.
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i remember growing up I’d literally get a buzz off a good thread or from reeling off a good post. it felt so incredible being able to communicate with people across the world and be taken seriously, evaluated on the merits of my words rather than dismissed due to age or race or anything. and most of all, it felt like this special secret between you and other dorks. now everyone has phones in their pocket. going on twitter is like going to mcdonals.
I dismiss this comment because your age and race are ambiguous and everything else! /S
Seriously though I kind of feel like Lemmy has at least some of that nostalgic feeling. Surfing through instances, finding that one semi-active obscure interest community you fit right in with. It’s definitely not the same but nothing stays the same.
The worst comment section of all belongs to Instagram. Absolute cesspool full of the most moronic people i’ve ever witnessed. Smart phones killed the internet. We need something that isn’t THE internet, and is only accessible if you have the patience and knowledge to connect to it.
We need something that isn’t THE internet, and is only accessible if you have the patience and knowledge to connect to it.
That kinda does exist it’s just that you and I lack either the knowledge or patience to connect to it.
No, we need something that is just accessible enough that I am still included, but all those other normies aren’t! \s
If that’s what you want, it does exist. It is called Usenet and it predates the world wide web. There are still active discussion communities, though most of its bandwidth is used for file-sharing nowadays.
It’s exactly the way David Bowie described how it would be back in the 90’s, though.
Is this a joke I don’t get or is there any source of what did David Bowie said ? (o･ω･o)
Here you go. Interview he did in 1999. I can’t find it right now, but this isn’t the full interview; he goes into a bit more detail after this and mentions the bad things it would bring that we are starting to become more well known and widespread.
